Transitioning from CMO to CRO: Insights from the Front Lines.

Alex Jonathan Brown: [00:00:06] It's 11 a.m. in the Bay area, 2 p.m. in New York City. And wherever you are, turn off your stock notifications. Grab a mug of your favorite caffeinated beverage. It's time for a coffee break. I'm Alex Jonathan Brown, Senior Content Strategist here at Iron Horse, and I'm joined today by Monika Behnke, Chief Growth Officer at Iron Horse. And Latané Conant, Chief Revenue Officer at Sixth Sense. Hi, everyone.

Monica Behncke: [00:00:32] Hi.

Alex Jonathan Brown: [00:00:36] Home and like he said, revenue like a real weirdo. There. That wasn't an accident. That's what we're talking about today. And specifically the trends that we're seeing kind of generally in the industry and specifically with some people on this call about the move from CMOs to CROs and Latané, as I've hinted at, you've just gone through this, Monica. You live in the C-suite. So y'all are the experts on this one. If you're watching and have questions, throw them in the chat. I'll get them into the conversation. But other than that, I just get to sit back and enjoy my coffee. I'm gonna let you two, uh, kind of run the show here. So the floor is yours.

Monica Behncke: [00:01:18] Thanks, Alex. Hi, Latané. Nice to see you again. Hi.

Latané Conant: [00:01:23] Thanks for having me. This is going to be fun.

Monica Behncke: [00:01:26] Yeah, I hope so. Um, so I was I actually went back this morning to read your announcement blog when you first took on the role of CRO, which was 6 to 7 months ago at this point. Um, I wanted to take you back to that moment to start and have you tell us about kind of how that happened, you know, how long were the discussions before that announcement happened? You know, was it something you had been thinking about, something the business has been thinking about, like just kind of pull the curtain back and let us know a little bit more about it. Yeah.

Latané Conant: [00:02:04] Let's go backstage, shall we? Um, so. We are a very high growth company. And, the reason I share that is I'm not sure every company needs a CRO necessarily. But for us, what had happened is we had grown extremely quickly. We had, we’re now multiple geos. So we were now a global business. We launched products that were multiple like buying groups or multiple personas. And uh, we also had this huge customer base and a big part of our revenue plan. You know, 50% of our revenue plan is about growing customers. So we just found ourselves in a place that there was a lot going on, and we were trying to make decisions, and there were a lot of different departments to corral and bring together and get decisions made. And it just felt like there was like, honestly a lot of sand in the gears. Um,and, you know, if you're a high growth company, you can't afford that. Time is money. And so we just felt like, gosh, we need one person who can look over all of this de-silo things, make the right decisions so we can move more quickly, um, in service of our market and our and our customers. And so we sort of came to that conclusion and then, um, we thought, okay, well, who, who should do it? And, and we went out and, and actually, I wouldn't say we did a full search. It was more of a soft search, like what kinds of CROs are out there? And, um, and what we found was. There are a ton of talented crows out there, but many didn't have some of the key things that we really needed, which was around the ability to build a partner ecosystem. Um, the ability to create service offerings, uh, and actually have like value added services that surround our product, uh, the ability to really think holistically about customer experience and post-sale. And so, you know, we just weren't maybe finding and, you know, we didn't look crazy hard, but but we just weren't finding like, those strengths. And it got to the place where it was like, okay, um, maybe I'll just do it. Um, and, I was definitely very nervous about it, but. I got my mind comfortable. And I got our CEO comfortable and, um, ultimately, the board comfortable around me being capable to do the role because I know the customer better than anybody else

Monica Behncke: [00:05:15] Mhm.

Latané Conant: [00:05:16] And so ultimately that's what it came down to. You know, in my role as the Chief Market Officer, I just really intimately knew all of our customers and intimately knew the product and use the product day in and day out. And so um, and so and you know, he who knows the customer best or she wins. And so that was, that was sort of the pitch for, for why me? Um, I would say the other thing is like the team, you know, we have a close knit team, we have a leadership team that's been together a long time. And so one of my criteria for even wanting to do it is, you know, would the team be accepting of this? Right? Would they feel, um, like I could lead them? And so actually, I called before I even put my hat in the ring. I was like, I'm going to put my hat in the ring for this. What do you think? Because I don't want to do it if you don't feel like this would be a positive, would be positive for you. Uh, so that that was another big part of it is just we have such an amazing team. We we want to make sure we keep them together and keep them motivated and, um, are working for them.

Monica Behncke: [00:06:40] It's great. There's so much to unpack there. Thank you. Um, it's it's interesting. Your very first statement. Um, I'm going to ask you a few follow up questions, because it's your very first statement was not every company needs a CRO. And, um, it's interesting because I've seen a lot of pundits make almost an opposite statement that says every company should have a CRO, but it sounded like your criteria was there is A) high growth. So it's the it's the, the speed at which you want to go, the velocity and also the complexity, the number of pieces that we're in. Do you have any, um, situations where you don't think a CRO is the right role?

Latané Conant: [00:07:26] Yeah, I don't love. And I've been on the record saying this that I don't love for CMOs when they get layered under a CRO that is primarily a had a sales path. I think it's challenging. And so that's the caveat is, I think that there are times when the CMO really should report to the CEO. Um, because if you think about, like, we actually have this revenue creation framework and there's six pillars to what we think you have to be great at to systemically generate revenue. And the first pillar is understand your market. The second is revenue strategy. The third is create demand. The fourth is capture demand, fifth is manage opportunities and sixth is grow customers. And so what can easily happen is Sales is in a sil managing opportunities. Marketing is in a silo creating demand. And who's really doing the the market and the strategy? And those are the things that make all of the others work. And so, um, you know, hence why when I was running our marketing function, I called myself a Chief Market Officer because I think that is so important. Yeah. And so I think that, like, it's just that that part of the equation can't get missed

Monica Behncke: [00:09:07] Yeah. It's interesting because when I was back at Forrester, we had a lot of conversations about CROs and when we were doing the study, and this was a number of years ago, um, it started out almost. I always thought of it as a relabeling or a rebranding of a Chief Sales Officer. And I worried about the exactly the same thing is, you know, marketing, losing a seat at the table, things becoming too short term. You know, it's like it's revenue for this week. It doesn't think about where is where is the market going and thus where do we have to go? Um, and so it's I'm happy that you've got the same point of view. And I think it's really interesting that, you know, and, thoughtful in a very good way that 6Sense had the insight to see a marketing person can bring all of those really, really critical things to the table and have the process knowledge like the structure and the process and workflow knowledge to have the sales side of it as well. Um, do you know a lot of of CMOs that have become CROs? I don't know a lot.

Latané Conant: [00:10:22] I don't think, there's a there certainly are some, um, you know, I don't know if it's the most common path. Um, and I think that, you know, I do think, hey, I'm not going to sugarcoat, like, running and making the number is really hard, you know? And so it's no easy gig. And I think that's why, often, great sales leaders, do, you know, earn the spot of of being the CRO because ultimately, like there's that one metric - did you make it at the end of the quarter or not? Yeah. Um, so I completely understand, you know, and respect that. But yeah, the balancing and the context switching between long term and short term is just. I think critical to be good at this role. And it's hard.

Monica Behncke: [00:11:19] Yeah.So that was six months ago. Fast forward to now in the role for 6 or 7 months now, what's been the biggest surprise?

Latané Conant: [00:11:32] What's been the biggest surprise? Probably less surprising just because I was already in the meat grinder. You know what I mean? I knew where all the, you know, roaches were or whatever, you know, I already knew. And I came with a pretty strong point of view for what I wanted to do. Right. So, part of when I stepped up and said I would do it before I did that, I talked about getting the team on board, but I also wrote down like - what do I want to do? Like, what do I think needs to get done, actually? What do I think needs to get done? And do I want to do this? and can I be good at this? You know, so that was kind of step one. And so it's not surprising, like,I understand, you know, what I'm geared and want to do. I think that it's been surprising and not surprising how long it takes for things to change. And so I keep telling myself this. It's like mentally I know, but emotionally I don't. And um, because, hey, like, I've taken lots of new roles over the course of my career. Like, it's a real potpourri of random experiences that I've, like, gathered. And I found that every random new job that I've taken, the first year, it takes a year.

Monica Behncke: [00:13:08] Yeah.

Latané Conant: [00:13:10] And so my husband keeps saying, you know, this, it takes a year, it takes a year. But when I'm in it, it's just so frustrating that it takes a year. Right.

And so I'm in that right now. And what I found is there's like the analyst curve with the hype cycle. It's like the hype cycle. Yeah yeah.

Monica Behncke: [00:13:32] Yeah yeah.

Latané Conant: [00:13:33] Like there's the - I'm so excited I'm manic because I've got all these ideas and I put the plan together and it's so fun. And then I'm getting everybody rallied and we and we're starting to do it and stuff's happening and that's cool. And then you get to about where I am right now and you're like, I've been working my butt off. And we've done a lot of things like. Why isn't everything amazing now? You know, and then you start to question like, oh my God, what am I doing? Right? And then around nine months you start to see like it's like the popcorn, like a little kernel pops and you're like, oh, that idea is now working. Oh, this idea is not working. You know, you're like, oh, thank God this the corn is popping. And then at the year mark, it's like, okay, now we've got a bag of popcorn. So intellectually I know this, but emotionally from where I'm sitting it's it's very hard. I'm very impatient.

Monica Behncke: [00:14:31] Yeah. I think you're impatience is probably a good thing. Um, just unpack if you can. Um, in a, in a broad strokes, what's the org look like underneath you? Do you have, like, a CMO and a CSO that reports or like to, like Senior Executives that have those? And what do you do on the Operations side? Because that's always been a big question. When people go to a CRO model, do they bring Marketing Ops and Sales Ops and unify it, or is it still two or is it half and half? Just give me kind of the top line of of what your team looks like.

Latané Conant: [00:15:07] Yep, yep. So I have um, our Head of Marketing. I have our Head of Sales. So these are Senior Leaders. I have our Head of Customer Success, Senior Leader. I have our Head of Professional Services, also Senior Leader. Our Head of Partnerships. And then we, um, also have a role called Customer Experience. And so those are my like direct line reports right now. Um, we actually disaggregated Revenue Ops previously. And it remains. And I actually further disaggregated it when I first started. Um, because we had gotten into a place where the team wasn't as connected to, like their Business Leader. Like, if you think about it, it's like being a Finance Business Partner or an HR Business Partner. Like if you're a Revenue Ops, you were a Business Partner to CS, to Marketing, to whatever. And I felt like we had lost some of that connectivity. So I actually put the Ops people right shoulder to shoulder under their key department.

Monica Behncke: [00:16:23] Mhm.

Latané Conant: [00:16:24] Um, for now. And because we just needed to, like, crank some stuff out and then we'll see. We'll see how it ends up coming back together. Um, because there's the Ops part and then there's the Analytics part. Mhm. So I do have a centralized analytics team okay. Which is critical.

Monica Behncke: [00:16:47] Yeah. Because that's that's part of the reason why oftentimes people go to a CRO model because everybody's fighting on the data. It's my data, it's your data. It's not the same. We have to look at the same data.

Latané Conant: [00:16:59] Yeah. So we have an Enterprise Data where - so my best friend at 6Sense is the CIO. So we have an Enterprise Data Warehouse, um, that he helped build and then an Analytics team that really helps me answer tough questions.

Monica Behncke: [00:17:19] It's awesome.

Latané Conant: [00:17:22] And the team. And, you know, they serve the overall team, of course. 

Monica Behncke: [00:17:25] Um, it's interesting that you took Customer Experience. Oftentimes you see that sitting under sales. Was that the way it was before?

Latané Conant: [00:17:35] No it wasn't.

Monica Behncke: [00:17:36] Okay.

Latané Conant : [00:17:38] It's always been, um, its own pillar. And I have, I would say, amped it up to be more. It wasn't as resourced as maybe I thought I wanted it to be. So we have resourced it a lot more. Um, because I think that like, the customer like, like the vision that I kind of rolled out is called six dimensional success.

Monica Behncke: [00:18:08] Mhm.

Latané Conant: [00:18:08] And so dimension one is actually um, our digital community and our digital experience called Rev City. Uh, because it's the city that never sleeps and we don't sell software, we sell change. And so we need anybody, anywhere in the world to be able to connect with another Rev head in Rev city and learn and grow and sort out their problems using the platform and, you know, on and off platform. And so we've already made a big investment in Rev City and it's really successful. But I want to actually do more with it. I want to have more generative AI. I wanted to combine the knowledge base with it, um, more, you know, more direct integration with the product. So that's like pillar one. Um, and you know that that's a meaty, meaty, um, pillar. Uh, pillar two is around like professional development. So having true certifications on our product again, we're now we're platform, we're multi-product multi persona. And so we've been able to launch three certifications which is great. And then you know we'll continue with that. And  we just see a market for 6Sense, people -  I get asked “who knows 6Sense. I need to hire someone.” And we started seeing in job descriptions like people that know 6Sense and I'm like, we need certification, you know. Yeah. Not only. And that also allows our champions to monetize their skill. Right? Because they have passed the test. So that was a big part of it. Um, and then more around the community. So user group, we already do a ton with the CMO Coffee Talk and the BDR Coffee Talk. But then and our are in, you know, big event. But we wanted more user groups that are happening all the time. So that's a big pillar. Uh professional services. So not just getting you live but getting you to a result. Mhm. Um, so how do we, you know, create an outcome coming right out of onboarding. That's a big pillar. Uh, our partner ecosystem. So I've been very vocal about saying, like, I want an $80 million services company that is like 6Sense Revenue, like that would make me so happy, right? Like I want big 6Sense practices because I think we sell change. And I think that, um, there's enough work out there and transforming marketing and sales. Um. And we can help generate that for companies. Uh, and then the last dimension, of course, is our customer success, uh, team. But the CX org is really helping me round out this overall vision and make sure that there's a digital aspect across that whole life cycle and journey. Um, which is so critical, I think today.

Monica Behncke: [00:21:06] Yeah, I love the fact that you're - sorry, Alex.

Alex Jonathan Brown: [00:21:10] Oh, I was no. Go for it. I'll. I can hop back in afterwards.

Monica Behncke: [00:21:13] I, um, when you were talking about we transform and change marketing and sales. We recently did a study just about to be published, and we were measuring, um, how well for ABM implementation, sales and marketing are aligned. And what we wanted to do is look at high growth companies versus medium or low growth companies. And it's black and white. If sales and marketing are aligned, high growth on ABM as a mindset and a practice and the way that they do it and when they are not aligned, much, much lower growth. And the data was - we wanted data to say, yes, that what our hypothesis is and what we as marketers know every day I want data behind it. And it is very much about that alignment and creating change together in order to create growth.

Latané Conant: [00:22:03] I love that, I think that's great. I'd love to see that research. It's like, you know. Like, it's not like just alignment so that it's like a better work environment. I mean, it is, but it's also like these are the numbers that prove that it's key.

Monica Behncke: [00:22:20] Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, Alex.

Alex Jonathan Brown: [00:22:22] Well, Latané both for you and everybody else. If you'd like to see research and blog posts and stuff, we've written about it. It's all available @ IronHorse.io I did my job. Um, but let me - the question I actually have for you. So it seems like that transition has gone really well for you and for 6Sense in general. But in the process of doing it, have you seen things that would be red flags if they weren't there? Like what companies that are maybe thinking about making a transition or like, um, raising the the role of the CRO or taking their current CMO and shifting them, like, what are things that have to be part of that process from what you've seen or what companies maybe should just stick to kind of, let's keep everybody where they are. Um, is there anything that immediately comes to mind?

Latané Conant: [00:23:11] You can't lose the team. You know. You can't. So I know, you know, I think ensuring. I think that when executives come in or get promoted and just colossally fail is when I caught, like organ rejection.They just didn't take the time, like they didn't read the room. Right. Like they didn't, um, know who needed to be brought along. They didn't understand, like the norms and workings of a company and how stuff really gets done. And so, um, I call it getting in the flow. Like, you gotta get in the flow with the teams and how they work. And, and I think kind of come in without a lot of judgment and more like empathy. For what they're doing before you start, like barking orders and like throwing out ideas. And so like one of the things that I did is, like, with one of our groups, I'm like, I'm going to like, I'll be a CSM. Let's go. You know, because that was the area I knew the least about. Honestly, I felt like I had the least like my mind wrapped around it the least. And so, I mean, I just I was in there day in and day out. And so when people would say, oh, I think we should do this, I'm like, I kind of thought that too. But I'm telling you guys, like, I've been on, I've been sat in the fort like, like I actually think this is what needs to like. So I think it's just. Yeah, you got to get in the flow. And like, a lot of, um. A lot of people say, oh, I want to be strategic and I want to stay high level. And I don't know, that doesn't work for me. Like I get in the weeds, man, I love weeds. I, I, I want to see all the dandelions. Um. Because I think that's how I like process, I suppose.

Monica Behncke: [00:25:23] Yeah I think it's great advice you're gonna ask you about some of your advice and that was one of it. And that's a great piece of advice. And I 100% agree.

Latané Conant: [00:25:34] Like, you want to own a BDR Org and help BDRs? Like, go be a BDR for a year.

Monica Behncke: [00:25:37] You bet.

Latané Conant: [00:25:41] You know, you want to like, it's just, I don't know, someone. I was actually with a friend, and he had a kind of a funny joke. He said, you know. It was about the walk. You know, the proverb about walking in moccasins. And he said, not only the joke, I guess, is not only if you walk in someone else's moccasins a mile, you'll have taken their moccasins and be a mile away. If it doesn't work or something, I don't know. It was. It was kind of cute. It was funny, but.

Monica Behncke: [00:26:11] But give me your damn moccasins. Yeah, yeah. Um, two other quick questions before we wrap up and send everybody back to work. Um, and, they're kind of opposite sides of the same coin or the opposite sides of the same question. Um, if there is somebody that is looking and they look at their company and they go, you know, we really should - they’re a marketer and they really should have a CRO and it should be me. What would you advise them? And then the other side of it is I'm a marketer, I'm working with the CRO and I'm not being heard as a CRO, how does your marketer - You are a marketer, but if you weren't, how would they stay in the forefront of your mind?

Latané Conant: [00:27:01] Okay, let's take that one and then work back. Because now I forgot the first question okay. I have, I'm dyslexic and I have a learning disability and it's multi-part directions, so I can't, I don't do good with multi-part same. So, so first move I think that if, I think that the best thing to work with a CRO if you are in marketing is one. Just be like super, super on top of the pipeline. Not just marketing pipeline, but overall pipeline. Because again, think about like end of quarter and how crazy it is and da da da da. And if I know I can rely on you to be the drum beat of pipeline and the heartbeat of pipeline, and telling me when it's not just telling me when it's good and you did something, you know, but telling me when it's bad and we need to get all over it and like. Because I've already got to run a million different forecasts. So if you own the pipeline and the pipeline forecast and how we're pacing and are super on top of it, it's like, love you. Big job to be done that you've handled. That would be point one. Point two would be you need to be in that revenue. The market and the revenue strategy, Lane. And if you're not invited in there. You need to ask yourself why. Like you're probably not showing up a certain way that they are asking you. And so understanding of ideal customer profile, understanding of competitive intelligence, understanding of win loss review, understanding of when you win and when you don't win, and the cohorts of customers. Because when you're in those planning modes, you're always thinking, okay, here's how we're going to grow this year, but what is next year? Right. And so you're always thinking about the multiple horizons of growth when you think about your revenue plan. And so those are the type of questions that you're asking yourself. And I think a CMO can come and say, hey. I'm seeing this cohort of accounts as awesome. Why don't we add another vertical or I'm seeing and that that can create a territory. Because at the end of the day, a revenue plan is just a quota roll up.

Monica Behncke: [00:29:26] Yeah.

Latané Conant: [00:29:28] That's all it is. Where are we going to build? Territories. So the good territories so we can have quota coverage. And so that's the question that's getting asked. So if you can say hey. I think we light up this segment and I bet we could support four territories, or I think we do this and we could support that. Like then all of a sudden you're like gold to me.

Monica Behncke: [00:29:50] Yeah. Know your audience?

Latané Conant: [00:29:52] Yeah, yeah.

Monica Behncke: [00:29:53] So that the last question, which was the first question not to be confusing, was if my company doesn't have a CRO and I'm, I am in marketing and I think that I am the person, how would you advise that person? How would you? 

Latané Conant: [00:30:09] I think you need to parlay what you're doing today into like key CRO skills. So if for example, if you own the BDRs that's a really like that. Running a BDR team is like, uh, that's just a mini sales type of team, right? With activity tracking, the progression, the process. Um, so I think that's a really good. And then their career development, like if you can prove that you can pop BDRs out and graduate them and have them be successful AEs I think that's a good like parlay. Um, the other thing is around the pipeline forecasting, like you, you have to forecast and it's hard. And so learning how to forecast on pipeline is, I think, a good, good parlay into - okay, now I could forecast, you know, retention or upsell or this or that, because it's sort of the same thought process. Um, I would say, like if you get the opportunity to take sales enablement, a lot of times there's a lot of jump ball. Like if you're in a high growth company, there's a lot of jump balls, like stuff that people are like, we need to do and we don't have anyone to do it. So just like take the jump balls, like take it. If you have a really strong Marketing Ops person and you're good at Ops, later that strength and be like, I'll take all of Revenue Ops and I'll do it for everybody, it's fine. And that's how I gathered experiences, is just picking up things that nobody wanted.

Monica Behncke: [00:31:42] Yeah.

Latané Conant: [00:31:42] That's a um and so just be okay doing that, because all of a sudden, this collection of seemingly random experiences put you in a great spot to understand, like, a lot of the business.

Monica Behncke: [00:31:55] Great advice.

Alex Jonathan Brown: [00:31:57] Awesome. I think we are quickly approaching time. I will be our quick mental health advocate taking jump balls. Always an amazing idea. Don't burn yourself out then you're not useful for anybody. Find your sweet spot. Um, but also take those jump balls. It's really good career advice. Um, and speaking of mental health, I hope you have all enjoyed your coffee. Latané, thank you so much for joining us. If people want to learn more about you or the amazing things that you're doing over at 6Sense, where where can they do that?

Latané Conant: [00:32:27] Yeah, LinkedIn. So where it's at. Connect. Follow. DM. Um, yeah.

Alex Jonathan Brown: [00:32:34] Um, and if you're from the Midwest and, and or not familiar with 6Sense, it is just 6Sense. There's no th in there. Um, Midwesterners, we just add to everything whenever we can. Uh, Monica, I know the answer for you. Um, but if people want to learn more about Iron Horse, where can they go?

Monica Behncke: [00:32:52] IronHorse.io

Alex Jonathan Brown: [00:32:54] Yeah, it's really easy. We're also both on LinkedIn as well. Um, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you everybody in the chat. I didn't chime in too much because Latané was in there and we got most of the questions answered. Um, so no worries there. But thank you for joining us for our coffee break. We do this about once a month. But until next time, uh, coffee break's over. Let's get back to work. Thanks.

Latané Conant : [00:33:15] Now we're all caffeinated. Thanks, guys.