B2B Content That Converts: How to Give Your Audience What They Really Want.

Alex Jonathan Brown

00:00-00:43

It's 11 AM in Chavez Bean, 2 PM in the Bronx. And whoever you're rooting for this October, great.

I'm Alex Johnson Brown, senior content strategist here at Iron Horse. And today, we're digging into one of the biggest challenges facing marketers, I think, not just creating content, but creating the right content.

To help crack the case, I'm joined today by Amber Keller, content director at Iron Horse and my boss, and vice president of brand content and communications at ZoomInfo, Megan Barr. Hi, everyone.

Meghan Barr

00:44 - 00:46

Hello. Hello.

Alex Jonathan Brown

00:46 - 01:43

We're just gonna kinda dive right into it. One of the things that I think is so interesting about this problem about figuring out how to work is that everybody is sort of writing a blog with the idea of great, a blog is on the site, my job's done. We wanna see traction. We wanna see people interacting.

And there's time, energy, and resources that go into that, but there was a survey last year that something like 57% of B2B marketers say that creating content that connects is the challenge for them. So, I think a good place to kinda start this conversation is, what stands in the way of creating content that resonates? Like, if why doesn't it just all work? Like, obviously, it doesn't, but where does it get sideways?

Meghan Barr

01:43 - 03:02

Sure. Well, first of all, thanks for having me. Really glad to be here to chat about this.

So I would say the first thing is I think people don't take a moment and ask, what am I trying to accomplish with this piece of content? Like, I think there's sometimes a default response that's, like, we need a blog or, you know, we need this and okay, but, like, why do you need it? And I think actually even dialing it back a step further and asking yourselves, “Who are we and what are we trying to say? And what is our unique point of view, and then who is the audience that we're trying to reach?

And I think all of that is kind of, like, refining your story and hyper-targeting who you're talking to. You don't wanna talk to everybody in the world. Right? But who are you trying to talk to, and what are they looking for? So I think, like, actually taking a pause and making sure you have those fundamental questions answered is, to me, whenever we have those things locked up, then we're able to create amazing work.

But if you don't have that, then it's kind of like trying to create something with, like, a hole at the center of the story. I don't know if you have thoughts on that, Amber.

Amber Keller

03:02 - 04:30

I mean, I was just like, yeah. Exactly. Who are we talking to? What are we trying to say to them? Why are we trying to say this?

One thing that I think is really hard is to stay focused on the goals. So, I do find that, a lot of time, people aren't, companies aren't taking that time to figure out what are the goals, like you said. And I also think that those goals don't always get communicated all the way through the process, and so they're there. But the people that are actually coming up with the content ideas, don't have their eye on them.

I also think that content is really fun, and so everybody has an idea for cool content. And there is a lot of content out there that's really, really great and really cool, really creative. It's packaged nicely. It has great features, lots of tidbits in it, and does not remotely meet the goals of the company, the project, the audience. And so I think part of it too is being able to say, “Awesome idea, but let's look back at the goals that we established here, and make sure that we can take the best pieces of this and do them in a way that actually meets our goals.”

Meghan Barr

04:30 - 06:05

I love that. And I also like, if I get an idea that maybe isn't all the way there, I like to say, “Yes, and.” So it's, like, great. Good idea. And then I'll take it back to my team and say, “Okay. How do we take this idea and make it actually great?” So I view that as part of our job. Right? Our job isn't necessarily to say no to an idea, but to take the idea and find the kernel of goodness in it. And I used to do this. I used to be a journalist before I joined the tech world, and I did this all the time.

Like, I'd have news editors come to me and say, like, go do this story. And I'd go and look into it, and then realize that's not the story I need to tell. We need to tell this story. And I think that process is actually how you find a great story, because you have to go and do the work.

I also love what you said about having fun. I actually think that's so important in marketing and especially in content creation. Again, when I look back on some of our best stories that we've done at ZoomInfo, it's the ones we actually had a lot of fun creating usually. 

One recent example was we created this video called seller showdown. It's on our LinkedIn page. You can go check it out, where we pitted 2 sellers together against each other. 1 was using, like, traditional ways of preparing for a meeting, and the other one was able to use our Copilot ZoomInfo Copilot AI product, and we actually had them, like, try to compete and see who could prepare for the meeting the best in 10 minutes, and our CEO was the moderator, and we made it like a reality show.

Anyway, when I first thought of this, when someone first had an idea, it wasn't fully that, but we turned it into, you know what? Let's make it a reality show. Let's, you know and and then we actually got into it and had fun, and everyone talked about that video. It got so much attention on social media because it was just fun, and it was educational. It got across our message of what we were trying to convey, showing how our product was like a product marketing video, but it was fun. So I think, like, we often lose sight of the fact that, like, we should actually be having fun because telling stories is fun.

Amber Keller

06:41 - 07:28

I love that video, by the way. We also shared it around inside Iron Horse and just were basically fangirling all over it, because it does all of the things that we're talking about here. It it it's fun. Right? But it actually is connected to the goals that you wanna do. And I almost think that that sort of layering and brainstorming of bringing in new ideas happens better when you do have a goal and an audience that you are trying to reach because that sparks these ideas of how can we make this better and let's bring this in. And then you end up with something that's pitch perfect, even the music. Everything in it was just like those reality shows. Yes.

Meghan Barr

07:28 - 09:00

I'm very fortunate to have a very talented video producer on my team. Shout out to Amir Cohn, and, like, he's wonderful because he can take something and then visualize a totally different thing and see how it can actually come to life in a totally different way. And I also think, like, ideas like, you should not be afraid to work cross functionally throughout your organization to get good ideas. Like, I often will gut check ideas with some of our sales leaders and say because we are fundamentally, you know, salespeople are our biggest customers. And so I'm like, would you read this? Does this, do you care about this? Would this resonate with you?

We're actually coming up with the next episode of Seller Showdown. And I reached out to one of our SVPs in sales because I was struggling to get the concept right, and he was, like, actually, you should try this.

And so I think, like, being humble enough to realize when I'm not a salesperson, so I don't know exactly what the right sort of, like, parameters are, or what is a scenario that would really resonate with them that also matches with our product. So yeah. So sometimes it's also about, like, you can get the idea right by going to the people who are your audience, who also sit on your own team, which I think that's, like, such a unique advantage.

Amber Keller

09:00 - 09:02

Yeah. Alex. I was gonna go

Alex Jonathan Brown

09:03 - 09:14

If you've got more, go ahead. I was gonna I've got a I've got my I've got a personal question about myself, essentially. So, Amber, if you've got something else, please, before I

Amber Keller

09:14 - 09:48

No.

I was just thinking about how that's advice that we also use internally and give a lot to our clients and that, and that was something that Alex was just talking to a client about recently and being able to tap into the experts in your own company in the roles that you are targeting with your product. Scenarios and also language. And even, like, did you watch reality TV shows, or is that just something like me and my cohort did? Right? Like

Meghan Barr

09:50 - 10:28

100%. Different audiences of people have different interests, challenging and also exciting. I think that the way that we all consume information today is that we all have our own algorithms. We all have our own, you know, many different places where we get information from.

And so that's gonna look different if you're a salesperson or if you're a marketer or if you are, you know, a communications professional or or whatever it is. Like, so getting down to that and asking people, how do you get your information and what are you looking for is really important.

Yeah. Go ahead, Alex.

Alex Jonathan Brown

10:28 - 11:55

So along those lines well, first off, if you're watching and have questions for our speakers, throw them in the chat. I'm kinda monitoring that. I'll work them in the conversation. But one thing that I think is so important about the idea of, like, this should be fun, and we want it to be fun, and we were getting really close to it, in that last little bit, Amber. But I just wanna make it explicitly clear. Like, if you're going to do a joke or a reference to a thing, you need to find someone outside of your bubble and see if they know what it means.

Because like you said, Meaghan, it is like, the TikTok algorithm is such a great example of, like, I I have been seeing the same 3 memes for 3 weeks. That doesn't mean that anyone else has.

So I can't, unfortunately, I can't always professionally do Costco guys bits, which is the only thing I wanna do in the last month, because it's possible no one knows what I'm talking about. There were these 2 guys that went to Costco. They have a whole cinematic universe now. It's out of control. The Internet is wild. Maybe it was a bad idea. Who knows? But it's also really important to have to, like, find the places to check that instinct of, like Yeah. Yeah. We do wanna have fun, but, like, people pay us for a reason, and that reason ultimately is to drive more revenue.

Meghan Barr

11:55 - 13:44

Correct.

And I also think you have to set parameters around having fun. Right? And so, like, for example, that also like, when you see a brand, for example, jumping on a meme that, like, let's say, the very demure trend that was going around on social media, which I assume probably most people saw. I feel like that was a very ubiquitous one that everyone knew about.

Like, we ask ourselves this all the time, because I also lead our social media team, and it's like, does this make sense for us to try to get involved with, or would this be very cringe for us if we did? And so, like, that also comes back to knowing what your brand voice is and who you are as a company and how you wanna come across. And we've done a lot of work directly. We're a founder led company, so our CEO, he has a very strong, like, sensibility about our brand voice.

So recently, we actually got like, we collaborated with him on a new updated version of our brand personality, and, like, what does our voice sound like? What are the thing what does that mean? What does that look like specifically, and the types of post we might do on social or not? And I think, to me, it's actually really important, like, content hygiene that you have to do as a company, and we've we've done this. I've been at Zoominfo for almost 4 years now and it's like you have to constantly revisit it and make sure this is who we are. Right?

This is correct right now. Maybe your audience changes over time or whatever it is. But I think if you don't know that, and and it isn't really clear across your whole team, like, you don't have a clear style guide or or whatever it is, that's when, like, having fun can maybe go awry and, like, not not come across it won't hit the right way. It won't, like, land how you want it to.

Amber Keller

13:44 - 14:44

I think it's I'm really glad that you brought up a style guide, because I think one of the things that we're talking about here is not just doing the work, but also documenting that work and making sure that everybody knows and is on board with it.

It is the same thing that we were talking about with the goals, your brand voice, your point of view. And then ultimately, when you're learning about your audience, you know, you don't wanna go off and talk to the salesperson, and then you have that in your head that nobody else knows. And so they're moving towards something different or they don't have that information. So, I feel like that's right?

It's something that gets missed because it feels like that last step. I mean, documentation always feels like that last piece and you're moving so fast. But, I actually think it's a really important foundational element that makes the whole process run a lot more smoothly and efficiently and effectively.

Meghan Barr

14:44 - 15:52

Totally. And after we sort of updated this brand personality deck, I sat down with our social media team and answered questions, and we talked through specific examples so that they felt really comfortable with okay, now I can take this, and I can run with it, and I know what to do.

And so it's so important, and I will say that is something, like, when I left journalism and came into the tech world, I didn't understand the importance of a brand style guide. I kinda thought, like, why do you need your own, like, come on? Because I came from the world where we used AP the AP style guide for everything. And I was like, that's enough. Like, we'll just use that. And I was actually wrong about that. That was not enough because what I learned is that every company has its own, it's like a special snowflake. It has its own. This is how I describe my children. Every child is a special little snowflake who's, like, very unique and different, and you have to parent each one differently. And I think it's the same rule applies to companies. And so yeah. I learned, actually, no, we need a brand style guide and because that will empower my team to do great work.

Amber Keller

15:52 - 16:25

Yeah. And I I think when people think style guides, sometimes they just think, oh, like AP. Like, how are my headers formatted? Right? And if you're doing it right, that's all coming out of that brand personality work, that brand voice. Right? Your brand. And so there is so much more than the styling that goes into that guide. I love that you talked about working with the team and doing exams. It's almost like a training or a role play to kinda make sure that they understand how to use that to create the right kinds of posts. 

Alex Jonathan Brown

16:27 - 17:53

So I think I think we've kind of had a great version of the conversation about kind of more top of the funnel, like, again, stuff that we're talking about on social, all that stuff. But it's also super important to have content that connects with buyers throughout various stages of their buyer's journey and your selling process.

So I think a lot of the same rules apply. We just move them down funnel and maybe up level the language a little bit as we move maybe up an org chart. But one thing that I wanna ask kind of across the board for this is okay. So we've got an idea to create content that we think is gonna connect. It's out there. We love it internally. Five stars across the board. How do we kind of tell if it's working in market the way that we think it should be? Like, what are the signals that we're looking for? What are, because, again, social is easy. How many people shared it? What are our impressions? Like, etcetera. But especially if we're thinking about maybe something that's gated, so we get a KPI for sign ups or downloads or whatever, but that's before they've seen the content. So what are the signals that we can kinda look for to make sure that our stuff is working the way we think it is once it's out there?

Meghan Barr

17:56 - 20:21

Yeah. I know. Right? This is, like, the fundamental challenge with content marketing, I think, which I, have I think it's just a for at least it's a myth, though. It's an ongoing work in progress. So we have built a Tableau several Tableau dashboards. We have an incredible, analytics team, who we work closely with. And so they built us multiple dashboards that can track, in a very granular way, you know, leads driven by a piece, leads influenced by a piece of content, ACV influenced by a piece of content, pipeline driven. And that is coming from so many different sources. Right?

It comes from email marketing campaigns, content syndication campaigns, like, all of the different warm demand gen programs that we're running at any given time. But even though we have all those metrics, so we'll look at those and we'll see, okay, wow, this one piece of content, like, it just went crazy. It had, like, crazy open rates, you know, whatever it is.

And so we're constantly looking at those dashboards. But even though we have those, I think it's still really hard to because, at the end of the day, it's still, I could give you an example. We have this, website that we created called our go to market place page, where we and this started with an ebook that we created a couple years ago, where we, like, open sourced all of the go to market place that we run at Zubinfo that have helped us scale to a, you know, $1,000,000,000, revenue company. And it's like, here's the play. Here's the trigger. Here's the outcome. It's amazing. You should go check it out. I think it's zoominfo.com/plays.

And we have this website, and, I can't tell you exactly how many leads or ACV that site is driving. But when I tell you the number of people who have told me word-of-mouth, how much they love that site, it is so many people, they're like, I like, they'll reach out to me and say, you know what? I just want to tell you. I love your plays page. And so sometimes I think with content and I think with brand, it's like there's, like, this sort of dark, this hidden aspect of, like, how people are consuming content. So it doesn't mean it's not resonating, but it's hard for me to it's hard for me to measure that.

Amber Keller

20:21 - 22:36

Right? To trace the path too. Yes. Yeah. I think one thing, I totally agree with everything you said, and the measurement piece is so hard. And I do think you have to create custom dashboards to make it work because there are so many pieces, and the data is, there's not that clear journey in any one tool.

One thing that I think content marketers can do and look at, is when they're making the content is being really focused on what they want to happen after this piece of content is consumed, and then making sure that not only does the the content, you know, answer the questions that the audience is gonna have that would lead them to take that next step, but that you give them that actual pathway to that next step. It's a link at the end of your ebook. It's on the landing page. It's like you there aren't dead ends, and it's not just a scattershot of, now go check out all of these things, but it's this very intentional kind of journey.

One thing that I always tell our clients is, like, we know that we have this journey that we create that's sort of artificial because people don't start at the beginning and then get there to the end. So it's very helpful for conceptualizing the pieces of content that you want, understanding the questions, thinking about the questions that need to be answered in order to eventually make a decision.

But you also have to remember that people might come into this at any point, and then being able to provide pathways, like, back and forward can be really effective. Right? So oh, okay, you got here. Now you wanna, like, back up and find out all of the sort of groundwork that goes into this. Go back over here. Oh, you're ready to move forward. You're ready to talk to us. Let's give them those opportunities too. And if you have that all designed into your content strategy and in your content, then, when you look at your dashboards, it is a little bit easier to at least say, well, this is what I think should be happening. Can I tell if that's happening?

Alex Jonathan Brown

22:36 - 23:34

And a huge part of this too that, like, I think as marketers, sometimes we are hesitant to, or historically have been hesitant to lean on is, like, talk to your sales team and, like, like, figure out what questions people are showing up with. And because then sometimes it's super easy to go say, okay, where do we think they probably got the ideas for these questions? Like, we don't expect prospects to show up on sales calls and say, listen. The reason I am here is because I read this white paper that y'all wrote. It was fantastic. Here's my money. Right?

But, I mean, sometimes maybe, but that, like, interacting with sales can be such a huge resource for this kind of sourcing in a way that, unfortunately, for, I think, all of us, GA4 isn't always gonna fill with that info in the nice, super clean package that we'd like it to be. Meaghan, did you have something else? I feel like I talked over you a little bit there.

Meghan Barr

23:34 - 24:50

Not at all.

No. I totally love that point about talking to the sales team in a way. I feel like that is just reorienting. It's like a compass that you, like, come back to. Right? Like, yes. You can look at all the dashboards in the world, and you can map out this, like, golden customer journey, as much as we want. But the reality is there's so much we actually don't know about that journey and so much that we can't control about that journey.

Like, I don't know how many times someone might have read of one of our blog posts before they decided to go, like, click on it and get a free trial of our product. Mhmm. Or maybe they watched 5 of our social media videos. And then they were like, I'm interested in, like, knowing more of that.

Like, it's just like, that Seller Showdown video, for example, like, we it got tons of, engagement, tons of, oh, you know, tons of clicks. But, ultimately, I don't know how many, like, actual people went ahead and tried to go check out our products.

So, it that is where, exactly, you're just you have to kind of just, I think, attack this from a lot of different angles, I think. And hopefully, some of it sticks.

Amber Keller

24:50 - 25:50

I think your point, Alex, about the salespeople is really interesting too because I often think about going to sales and asking what are the questions they have, to find out, well, can we make a piece of content that answers those questions? But you just put a different spin on it, which is what are the questions they have? Oh, so they didn't have these earlier questions. They must have had those questions answered, and the ones that they're asking are prompted by something that you've put out there, some piece of content.

So it's obviously, it's not hard data, but it's a pretty good indicator, if if your customers, if your buyers are coming into that sales conversation further down the journey further along in their journey than they used to be or than you thought they would be, that your content that, sets that up is working. So that is a really good, yeah, way to look at that.

Alex Jonathan Brown

25:50 - 26:55

We're coming up on time here pretty quick. But, Megan, I wanna I wanna ask you specifically about this because it's you're in process on it. So you've done the first round of the Seller Showdown. You've got a second one in progress.

So one of the things that I think is always so interesting is the concept of how long do we run with an idea and run with a thing that's worked before we're like, okay. That's it. We're good. Like, we're now either seeing diminishing returns or, like, there is, in basketball, the idea is, like, a heat check where you keep feeding somebody who's shooting really well and they keep taking dumber and dumber shots until they miss. And then everybody's like, okay, we're gonna go back and run the plays that work. So, like, what are the things that you're kind of looking at as you've seen success on a thing to know, alright, that's gonna live forever on the Internet, and we're gonna shift those resources and those ideas somewhere else.

Meghan Barr

26:55 - 29:00

I love this question because I feel like it applies to so many different types of content. This is a classic thing, by the way, that newsrooms do. Like, if they are and there's a reason behind it. So let's say, for example, there's some big, political story that's going on. I would have my editors come to me and say, what are 3 different sidebars that we can write a sidebar in news is, like, an offshoot of that story? Because the topic is trending and people are interested in this. So we're gonna squeeze all the juice we can out of this story. Right? It's like a classic I'm not divulging state secrets here. It's a well known, like, tactic.

And I think it is smart. However, it doesn't always work. Right? And I think you always have to balance, like, are we going to become tired and old, and, like, is it gonna seem lame if we do too much of it? So for a Seller Showdown specifically, at first, we were kinda, like, like, going into it, we had thought we're only gonna do one of these. But then it got such an amazing reaction that we were like, okay. We've tapped into something here, so we  should keep going with it because we figured out a formula that works.

Right? So, like, so right now, we landed on 3 episodes because we've come up with 2 additional concepts that we think are interesting and distinct enough that they can exist on their own. But we we and we're still we haven't, like, fully gotten alignment on them. But, like, we are making sure that we have something that adds value and is entertaining and different enough that you don't feel like, oh, I already saw this, so why am I doing this? Right? And so I think, like, that's how we're approaching it. So I think it's always, like, what's gonna make someone stop their scroll? And, you know, you've gotta come up with something that's good enough to make them stop.

Alex Jonathan Brown

29:00 - 29:25

That kind of attention interruption is still such a huge important part of all of this. It's just, like, I as a person who hates writing headlines and subject lines, I wish they didn't matter, and I know they do, and it's the bane of my existence to some extent. It's important, and we do it. We are coming up on time. Amber, it looks like you, again, maybe had a thought there. Or.

Amber Keller

29:26 - 30:41

No. I was just latching on to that point about it's the secondary or next piece of content, auxiliary piece of content being interesting and distinct enough, to make it interesting and, or to make it worthwhile, really. And, you know, I think that, while I love derivative content, I think it's a very effective strategy. I also feel like it's a little bit of a buzzword where it's like, okay, you're gonna create this thing, and then you're gonna create all the derivative content you can out of it, which often is overkill.

There's just not that many pieces that can live in the market for that long, around it. But I think thinking of again and using that question of, like, is this distinct enough to be worthwhile? Do we add something different here? Does it bring the conversation further? Does it open up something else for the person looking at it? I mean, there's a little bit of course, here's a different format for a different audience member. That's one thing. But when you're looking at the same audience and you're trying to carry that idea forward, I think that's a really, really good question to be asking.

Alex Jonathan Brown

30:41 - 30:57

I think one of the things about derivative content is always, just make sure you're not surfacing a slightly worse version of the thing to an audience and, like, saying, oh, we did it. Great. Like, should they just go look at the thing? 

Amber Keller

30:57 - 30:58

Yes.

Meghan Barr

30:59 - 31:44

Yes. I could not agree more with that. You have to know when you've scraped the bottom of the barrel, and then maybe it's time to let this thing rest and go do something else. But I, but you have to put in the research to, like, make that call. So, again, a lot of this, I think, actually ties back to what we talked about at the start of this call, which is getting the idea right.  And making sure the idea is specific and authentic and is connecting with an audience. And then if you put that work in upfront, then the actual creation of it is pretty seamless. Right? And so, anyway, I really do believe so strongly in idea generation and getting it right.

Amber Keller

31:44 - 31:45

Yeah.

Alex Jonathan Brown

31:45 - 32:09

Well, thank you both. This has been a fantastic chat. We're gonna do that thing where we scroll back into work with coffees a little later than we planned. It's fine. Nobody ever judges you when you do that. Megan, where can people learn more about you and everything that's happening over at ZoomInfo? We threw the link to the plays in the chat earlier. So if you're watching this and want that, scroll up a little bit. But where else can people check out?

Meghan Barr

32:09 - 32:40

I love it. Well, you can find me on social media like everybody else. So I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Twitter. Not really on threads. I kind of haven't been able to get into threads, but, that's a whole separate webinar we could do on threads. But we'd love to connect with people on LinkedIn, and you can check out our content on our blog, ZoomInfo, and also our ZoomInfo company LinkedIn page. You can find tons of our content there. So go check it out.

Alex Jonathan Brown

32:40 - 32:50

Thanks so much, Amber. I know where your stuff is, but, for the company, it's at ironhorse.io. Anywhere else we should shout out?

Amber Keller

32:50 - 33:08

Well, you can also find me on LinkedIn. I would love to connect with anybody there. And I do wanna give a shout out for a new resource that we have for content marketing, specifically for B2B marketers, that is a content strategy toolkit, full of templates, that you can use to do a lot of the things that we've been talking about here. So, gathering the information that you need so that you have your goals established at the beginning, you understand your audience, and that you can carry it all the way through into that ideation and planning stage. So you can find that on our site.

Alex Jonathan Brown

33:30 - 33:49

Awesome. And we do this roughly once a month. So keep an eye out on our LinkedIn and website to learn more about our next coffee break. Megan, thank you again so much for joining us. Amber, always good to chat with you, and until next time, break's over. Let's get back to work. Bye, everybody.

Meghan Barr

33:49 - 33:51

Thank you. Bye, guys.