From Signals to Strategy: Mastering the Modern Marketing Mix

[00:00:00] Alex Jonathan Brown: It's 11AM in the Bay Area, 2 PM in New York. And wherever you are, it's time for a coffee break. I'm Alex Jonathan Brown, senior content strategist here at Iron Horse. And as we head into 2025, marketers have more options and more data than we've maybe ever had before, which is great. But it does mean we have to be strategic to get the mix of everything just right.

That's what we're talking about today. And to help point us in the right direction. I'm joined by IronHorse CEO, Uzair Dada and Intensify president, Charlie Alliere. Ooh, I messed up. I was so pumped. I was going to nail it. We had a whole conversation before we started recording. All of this is staying in.

And I was like, “How do you pronounce your last name? And he said ‘Allieri’”. And I was like, great. I'm going to nail it. And then I didn’t. Charlie. Sorry for butchering your last name. And I feel like that's helpful for me anyway. So guys, welcome.

Like I said, marketers have limitless options, but they don't have limitless time and they definitely don't have limitless budgets. We're talking about marketing mix. We're talking about omnichannel marketing. And I think maybe the best place to start, just to kind of set the table. When we say omni channel marketing, if you're tuning in, that's a new term to you. What do we kind of mean when we're talking about that idea? 

[00:01:33] Uzair Dada: Yeah. So to me, omni channel kind of is in, kind of was an evolved term that came out of multi channel and multi channel was like, hey, if I'm doing go to market strategies and I'm using social media or paid social and programmatic display and content syndication and publisher programs.

And I'm doing all those things and I'm doing them sort of in an on and off basis, but they're not sort of connected. So even though I'm doing things, they're sort of happening in their silos. And then sort of the notion came out kind of as an offshoot from sort of all the account based marketing buzz that was happening over the years.

To say, our north star really is to drive a unified account conversation across channels. That means an action in one channel should really inform actions in other channels. And the new platform started coming out like Charlie's company and Intensify and others that facilitated audiences to be available that can be shared across the different pipes that we have.

So that an action that's happening in, say, perhaps LinkedIn could inform an action that's happening through Intensify Display. And vice versa. So the notion became much more real. And now, today, still, I think companies are trying to chase that north star of having unified conversation, that to me, that's sort of the definition of Omni channel, Charlie, anything you want to add?

[00:02:59] Charlie Allieri: Yeah. The only thing I would add to that is that for us identifying again, where that person or that account or that buying group is on their journey for a particular solution helps dictate which one of those channel mechanisms. And then to your point, it's, you need to coordinate those and align those so that as they move through their journey, you're aligning that to meet them where they are in that journey and, you know, reduce the noise and hopefully inform and accelerate that process for them.

[00:03:34] Uzair Dada: Yeah. Spot on. It's not just an action. It's a contextualized action based on who they are, where they are, and what they're doing. Exactly. 

[00:03:46] Alex Jonathan Brown: And so what I like, again, there's a lot to love about kind of this idea, but definitely the, we're following people on accounts, like along their journey, we're making sure that we're hitting them with messages that are most important to them when they need the most basically.

But that also raises a lot of questions on its own, because to do that, there, we have a lot of levers to pull. There are a lot of different things that we can do toward those goals. And that's kind of where we get into the conversation about the marketing mix, which is where I think we're going to head next.

But as you kind of. With that as the goal or the north star, like you said Uzair, how do we start thinking about, okay, what, how do I get this mix? What do I know that's what I want to do, but now what do I do? 

[00:04:33] Uzair Dada: Yeah, that's a super awesome question because oftentimes when we talk to a lot of our customers, they'll come and say, “Hey, I want to run a LinkedIn campaign, or I want to run an intensified campaign, or I want to run a Facebook campaign,” whatever else it may be. Awesome. What is it that you're trying to do? What's the outcome that you're trying to drive? Because. We've been trained historically, especially in the enterprise level to be very channel centric, not audience centric or audience within a channel centric rather than audience across accounts and accounts across anywhere.

And with the shift in the market happening, where majority of the stuff is happening off domain before anyone ever comes to you, we've talked about that topic several times, just thinking about the channel by itself is very narrow. So I think defining mix before defining outcomes, before defining, frankly, the biggest part, your ICP and persona is a crime.

Because you're sort of going from a much more point and shoot strategy and be much more targeted to a much more spray and pray strategy, right? But a lot of people struggle a lot with their ICP persona definition. They may say, yeah, we know who our ICP and persona is. But if you ask 20 people in an organization, you get 20 different answers, right?

When you ask them for their prioritized account list, what is their favorite answer? Fortune 2000 companies. That's just being lazy. 

[00:06:12] Charlie Allieri: No, I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, that's how we engage all the time. Our first step is before, wait a minute, before we start talking about budget, you know, for that channel or that activation point.

Let's take a look at, you know, the accounts you want to pursue, the buying groups, do you want to pursue? Where are they? What percentage are on different stages based on the different solutions that you're trying to approach them with? They're not going it's not, they're not buying Oracle, for instance, they're buying different solutions that Oracle has in their bag.

So where are they on their journey for each of those? And depending upon that. That's how you determine what is the most appropriate allocation of that based on the allocation of their audience against their journey for your different solutions. Otherwise, to your point, you're already starting from a point where I might be putting bad money, right?

After and you know, an activation point they're not ready for, right? So you're not going to get a great result. 

[00:07:24] Uzair Dada: Yeah. So I think that's another great point. Maturity of an organization. So before you decide not the media mix, just based on outcomes and ICP persona, but also readiness to act. If I spent all this money and did a content syndication program and a display program with Intentsify that's yielding me great leads and I'm getting all this information, they just come and get parked somewhere, right?

Because it has no way to mechanize doing something with it, conversely, or alternatively, I'm so eager that I take the content syndication lead that came out of Charlie's company, and I sent it straight to an SDR and the SDR, bless his soul, to meet his SLA, dialing for dollars, calling Alex Brown and saying, Alex Brown, I saw you downloaded this white paper from me. Hey, you know, and you're like, who are you? I have no recollection of ever downloading a white paper. 

[00:08:29] Charlie Allieri: Even if they do remember, but I couldn't agree with you more in the end, right? This all ends up at, on a salesperson's desk, right? And to try to convert that into revenue at some point eventually should end up.

[00:08:43] Uzair Dada:  I just, it doesn't all end up, but eventually it should end up if we did our jobs.

[00:08:48] Charlie Allieri: And to your point, it should never be one isolated tactic or a result, which you really want to do. And I keep pushing this back to really understand the activity of that whole buying group. So is it, yeah, you might get a form filled from one member of that buying group.

You might get some click throughs from an ad campaign that you ran, but there might be 10 other folks that are out there doing research. I think you mentioned outside your four virtual walls. And so it's really the holistic view of all the touch points along that journey that make that really a convertible opportunity, not, I think, that single thread and we've seen that in our results like we get great results from data driving our decisions and helping people allocate. If you look at it, just specifically around those service offerings, we get like 3, 4 times what you would get if you didn't do a data driven approach.

But then you get a multiplier effect on top of that when it's done in a coordinated way and represented and presented to the end consumer, right? A seller within that confines of what's been going on in that account. 

[00:10:12] Uzair Dada: Yeah, I think so. So back to the media mix. I think media mix should be driven based on a clarity of ICP and persona.

And if you don't have that clarity, work with your media partners as they're a fantastic source. We go to Intentsify as the world all the time to get market insight around what this category is doing. Here is our sample target account list. Can you help us look at a lookalike? Can you tell us what they're consuming? Can you tell us sort of their consumption patterns that helps kind of decide and decipher what it could be. And now we have amazing AI tools that help us do research, right? So being able to build out personas and propensities is not really that hard. You can take that and come up and it's never a hundred percent, but it's a really good swag and the swag and allows us to align between sales and marketing. So once we have that alignment, then take a test-based approach. So don't just say here are the four things I'm going to do, unless you have conviction that it's worked for you. Take a test in data-driven approach to say, here is what I want to test for this, what works.

And, but be real also, it's Oh, you know, I did this media campaign for programmatic and it didn't drive any conversion points. It's one touch, right? So like you're taking a holistic portfolio approach. That doesn't mean it's not important to say, does display influence me? Do a control group with, or without, when you're warming things up.

We've seen that when we warm up targeted account based campaigns, the reception rate for SDR campaigns goes up by three to four X. So use that to your advantage, but please do not focus on single touch attribution anymore. Those days are completely gone, right? We live in an account-centric world to sort of evolve our thinking. And I think we should embrace it. 

[00:12:21] Charlie Allieri: I mean, to your point, I'm assuming, you know, cause we jointly work with some very large brands. You know, none of those solutions are $10 items there. They're transactions that take months, sometimes even more than months, 25, 50 people, sometimes, depending on the size of that solution.

So if one impression is not going to be the reason why somebody spends a million dollars with some of these companies. So from that perspective, I couldn't agree with you more. And it's humorous to me that sometimes people don't look at it that way, right? These are sales cycles. That they're require kind of the patients to understand what all these indicators are providing and then appropriately addressing those within, you know, your own marketing and then sales channels.

[00:13:16] Uzair Dada: Yeah. I think it's in, in our, we live in an amazingly interesting environment of where we got bloated during COVID and right. And overbought technology, overbought whatever we wanted. And we're now sort of getting, I'm getting to be more efficient again, especially true in the tech world, whether you look at sales and media spends, sales and marketing spends in general, marketing spend is almost always the first one to go when I'm, when I'm kind of trimming down, right? If you look at sort of just in terms of and if I'm losing resources, those resources are not always coming back, but yet my goals are always increasing. At some point in time, you have to get smarter, right? And in today's day and age, if you are not taking a targeted approach to go do what you need to do, you are being extremely wasteful.

To me, you do not do it. And then if you are also not understanding what your metrics are and helping to reset those metrics within an organization so that they are not chasing everything to a single source and single attribution and you are giving lip service to an account strategy where you're still stuck on a direct attribution lead scoring model, you're not going to win that game. You're going to lose invariably. You're at fault from the get go.

[00:14:46] Charlie Allieri: But Uzair, then you go back to exactly what you just said. Somebody filled out a form for fill, now call, cause they're in market that, and that doesn't result in what everybody wants. Would you want, is a conversion.

And to your point, it can't be that way. And then the other part is I look at, I think you just mentioned it. Everything's being there. There's been some reductions. So sellers, right? What's the one resource that is completely not limited for them? It's time, right? So they have to focus on just those opportunities.

I want to look at those that have activity across all the channels, right? And makes sense. It aligns with what their knowledge is of a customer journey for them. So that they then want to engage with the right ones, the right accounts with the right solutions, right? Not just generally, they're interested in my company or my brand, but they're interested in these solutions.

Those are the ones that I can make my number with. I'm calling up those folks. So I truly, I couldn't agree with you more and helping our customers understand that is, and frankly, that's the good news is when they do it, the results are literally, there's a multiplier effect, great, which is data. If it's single threaded, but when it's coordinated, we see that same three, four X when it's a true brand to demand mentality.

I've got to just track this person through their process. And by the way, it's not linear. It doesn't go completely all the way through. So let's not set that precedent. And it's, you know, it's one of those things you just need to be focused on. 

[00:16:35] Alex Jonathan Brown: I think one of the things that's so interesting about thinking about all of this data. And like you said, is there kind of moving away from that single attribution? Like we got somebody to fill out a form one time and now we're going to sell to them right. Is back when that was kind of more of the main way of thinking and sort of how inbound marketing and all this kind of stuff worked in general, the buying group was still there.

And we talk a lot about how it's gotten bigger, but. The model then was still, okay, we got one person, we got one name. That's our champion. We're going to make them go do a lot of this work, right? Cause they don't have the yes or else they probably wouldn't have filled out a form on our website. And now we gotta go make that happen.

I think the kind of data that we're able to see from this like intent level data really can show how that buying group is starting to come together around your product, right? It's when you start to see those other people who maybe weren't your first touch. You can kind of see the way that your product and your ideas are making their way around an organization that you're trying to sell.

[00:17:40] Charlie Allieri: Great way to put it, by the way, Alex. I like it.

[00:17:41] Alex Jonathan Brown: Thanks. And it's where we start to see you. Why getting sales folks sometimes to pump the brakes a little bit can be so valuable. It's almost like you're fishing, right? Like we just want to throw a hook out there. We don't want to churn up the whole Lake and scare everybody off, but we do have a lot of data to look at and a lot of data that we're considering.

So as we get more and more of this coming in, how do we sort of separate the signal from the noise, to be sort of cliche about it. And what are the things that we should sort of be looking for? We're past the point where one form fill is enough to send everybody like all hands on deck go after it, but what should we be looking for and how can we kind of build systems that let us make those decisions effectively and smartly? 

[00:18:37] Uzair Dada: Yeah. And I think this is a massively important question. And I think that the whole thing is sort of the signal to noise is more than to me is interest to intent is another example, right? You've said, people said, if a single person comes and does a few actions that shows interest.

If a whole team of people does something at the same time that shows intent, both are sort of, I don't know if either one is fully true, but both are true in some ways. The notion is not about data because we marketers and just love data. It's like high octane gasoline and we just can't get enough of this.

Like we just love it. But then we are just drowning it and we don't know what to do with it. And we, as kind of, marketing agency partners are trying really hard working with kind of publishers and vendors, like Intentsify of the world to take third party, really good information with first party data and say, okay, how does the, how do we bring layered intent together?

Some of the big problems are not just data, but the data sits in different silos. So even if I have it, it's not easy to orchestrate, right? Maturity of APIs for different things that exist. Most vendors don't have good APIs, unfortunately, so I can't consume that data. Most companies now are demanding APIs because they want to build their own data lake and act on it right there, sort of building their own CDP, right?

Their own customer data platforms used to re-engage people. And then it's a okay, I have all this awesome data with the, one of the reasons we love working with intensifies, they have one of the best sources of data for a lot of things we do from a content perspective, from a creative perspective, that is a really good feeder into what we'd like to do and how we like to use it, but being able to sort of, again, but it's a lot of information.

So how do we digest it? So I think for, on the enterprise side and their enterprise agency partner sidem it's a lot of working with different data sets, layering that data and then trying to make sense of what is important to whom based on different personas we work with everyone from a demand gen person to a content person to a creative person to an SDR to an, I mean, it's not just give me data. Everyone has different needs with that data set. 

[00:20:58] Charlie Allieri: Yep. 

[00:20:58] Uzair Dada: So one is finding the right quality partners that have that data set that we can consume. And the most important one is how do we layer in that data. And if we were able to do that right, then the next part comes is how to action it.

Because it's not just about getting the data and seeing the data. Ideally, we want to be able to action against that data. So one example that we talked about that is a great example of intent data is, hey, if I got awesome data of here is a group of people that is in at the consideration state or evaluation stage of a product, and here are the perhaps people in the market implied buying teams is also researching these topic. Instead of me going after 500 people in that organization, perhaps I'm going after 25 people in that organization, right? So it's getting closer. I mean, I may not always be right, but I have a higher degree of getting right. 

[00:21:53] Charlie Allieri: I agree with you. I think that's the Alex's point. First off any fishing analogies. I'm a big fan, so I much prefer fishing in a school of fish than chasing just one.

It's a heck of a lot better. So I love groups of fish. So going back to this, so this is one of the things that we're. I agree, Uzair, what you were just saying is that from our perspective, getting the signal, there's so much data out there, but it's about refining, right? I think we, you know, when I first engaged with Intentsify 5, 3, 4 years ago, all we had was topics and keywords, right?

And at account level, kind of information, and that doesn't get you to that granularity of focus. Down on those folks, what we've done is gone to the solution level and then the buying group level to help us focus on those companies that have the personas that matter to you. Actually doing the research, not just globally, across that business.

Could be a bunch of interns doing great research, but they're not gonna buy anything. And so from that perspective I think there's two parts, and this is the thing I wholly believe. Technology has gotten to the point with AI, machine learning, whatever buzzword you want to apply to it that can take large amounts of data and make sense of it for you, right?

And I think, you know, there's us and lots of folks out there that can do that. But I think the second part is actually partnering with your customers to help them because not everybody else, even if we can provide gen AI descriptions, which we do of what somebody should do, it's still important, I think, to have that partner.

And that's why I think organizations like yourself, Uzair and Alex that can help people interpret all this to be able to give them a better sense of where they should apply this knowledge now to drive the result that they want. That's the key here. So it's always technology. I love technology. I love data.

As you were saying, but in the end, having people be a part of this is a significant, important part, because that's how you get the end results and the dialogue back and forth to understand that we're working towards the same goals. 

[00:24:18] Uzair Dada: Yeah, I think, but I think there's a big challenge that exists today, which we don't, we discount, which I think is probably the biggest hurdle.

It's not just the people readiness, it's the systems readiness. Systems readiness is a big issue. Like even if I have data that I get from Intentsify for any campaign we consume, my Marketo instance or my HubSpot instance or my Eloqua instance. It is still not set up, or my Salesforce is still not set up to consume that data.

So they're like, I just need these six lead fields. That's it. That's all I need. Six. You know, I need a source. I wanna know what this, that's it. I just need this. This is all I need. I don't need anything else. So even though certain parts of marketing have evolved to this as cool, I've not been able to move other silos in the organization on that same journey.

So I can't really act. So what happens? I've got data silos. I've got a crack summer intern who's built a tableau dashboard that I'm using here and there, but it's not connected. So I think that's a really important one. And then, of course, the most important one is just because I have this data and I can put data in Salesforce. God bless Salesforce. It looks like the largest data department store in the world. If you go in there, my God, the tabs just don't end, right? Everyone you talk to. 

[00:25:51] Charlie Allieri: That's a new term, but I do love that.

[00:25:53] Uzair Dada: I freaking go into salesforce like, Oh my God everyone, any vendor you talk to is I bought salesforce integration.

It's but how do I consume what's in there today? No, I think we just haven't. Evolved. And I think some of the investments that Salesforce is making in their co-pilots and other things that are able to now bring together, consume data at the AI level and bring bridge that together, I think that's where the next effort needs to go.

I don't think we have an issue of data anymore. Actually, I don't even think we don't have it. We haven't issued that much with data quality, but there's good quality sources of data that exist. I think we have a huge synthesis. 

[00:26:36] Charlie Allieri: I agree. 

[00:26:37] Uzair Dada: In a massive way based on who you are and where you are and what you are trying to do. And I think that's the next set of tooling and innovation. I think that's going to come out is probably going to be focused around that space. 

[00:26:49] Charlie Allieri: You know, I don't know if you're familiar with some of the research Forrester has been putting out around, you know, buying group, but I think, and their revenue marketing platform or revenue marketing solution areas, but it definitely does align more to, I think the problem you're, you just mentioning is that a lot of those, you know, traditional systems to put have had a very structured way of looking at data that doesn't align with some of the things we've been talking about, right?

Where it doesn't allow for an understanding of that customer journey. It's this event happened, you know, you maybe see a series of it, that's about as best as you can get really understanding. What does this all mean for that person's purchase decisions and where they might be on that.

They've done some great work on it. I really like some of the things that the folks over there have been putting together. And I think, you know, in talking to some of those platforms, there's ourselves. I think they're definitely thinking the same thing, but it's going to be a bit of time before everybody gets there. That's those, some of those ships are pretty big to move. 

[00:27:59] Uzair Dada: No, totally. I mean, you know, right now we all stuff everything we have into a newsfeed in Salesforce. Exactly. An activity history, right? There's a reason in Facebook, when I scroll up, when I go back up, then the news stories already changed because I can't keep up, right?

Like it says that modality is just not, that's not working anymore. And so I think this is an area of innovation with vendors like you all working with other platform vendors that exist to sort of bring that together. I think that's going to be a cool place. Some of the cool stuff that's happening there, I think it's really interesting is we're finally based on the new technology, being able to get more out of unstructured data.

Not how you guys are thinking about it, Charlie, in terms of platform evolution, but I'm pretty excited about some of the new stuff that's coming out with, you know, Clays of the world and others where you can now scrape a website. And then be able to pull in other nuggets from it and make that structured data set from unstructured data sets. I think that opens up so much more because we've been sort of stuck in this demographic firmographic space for so long, right? And 

[00:29:14] Charlie Allieri: I think I need to have a little side session and tell you about some things coming. 

[00:29:19] Uzair Dada: There you go. There you go. There you go. So anyway, there's some cool stuff. I think that's sort of, you know, I think there's that whole area. I'm pretty excited about it from kind of back to the first thing we talked about, which is ICP persona. The more I can refine my targeting, the better. There we go. So we underestimate how much time people need to spend on that. And it's not a crazy amount of time, but we just give it lip service and not spend, give it justice.

[00:29:47] Charlie Allieri: Yeah. If you don't have a map for your journey, you won't know where you're going. 

[00:29:54] Alex Jonathan Brown: One of the things that I think is so interesting and smart about the idea of intent data in general. Especially like going through the Intensify website. If we're just looking at these actions, like you said, Uzair, like a newsfeed in Salesforce, right?

The info that we get then is all past tense, right? Someone did this, someone did that. What I like about what intent data does is it shifts that mindset a little bit to, we think they are in the market. We think they are looking at this and like all of this whole conversation around this mix, I think it is so present tense and is so where are these people actively at?

And it gets back to the thing you said earlier, Uzair, about having an organization and having a team that's able to act on that. Because to use another fishing metaphor, you aren't the only boat in the water. If they are in market, they're looking, they're ready to bite something. And so being sure that you can be the ones who were there and like in that present tense, in that, this is the thing that's happening now, what are we going to do about that mode?

I think it's really important as the, I don't know if you can tell, I have a creative writing minor that I got 15 years ago. I use it for metaphors occasionally. We are coming up on time. This has been, obviously we are just dipping our proverbial toe into the water of this conversation. Is there anything you really want to hit on our way out as far as a big if we're doing, if we're giving you a billboard to talk about this, any major bullet points you want to leave people with?

[00:31:31] Uzair Dada: I mean, I would say we are so over focused on marketing and technology and everything else. I can't over emphasize the evolution of sales follow up that also needs to evolve, not just what we are doing in marketing because we today still do the same old five touches, two LinkedIn and emails, two phone calls, maybe an email or two. And then the three dreaded words come out of the sales rep's mouth. This lead sucks.

And it's sort of just if we are still thinking that five touches will get you for someone to answer you in a world where I get 500 emails a day and spam galore on my phone. No, it does not exist. So we can blame as much on the left side or anywhere else in the organization. But unless the two sides sit together and evolve together and use data driven approaches to evolve both sides because they both are, they have to play together as the growth team.

Both are going to fail. So it's not a marketing or sales problem anymore. And I think it's, and this is one area where I think marketing is ahead in what it's trying to do, but it almost always plays second seat to sales. And does not stand up to sales sometimes to say you have to change this, otherwise this will not work. So I think to me, that's something we don't talk about enough that I think we need to talk about more. And this is not about a sales marketing alignment where the CMO and CRO hug it out. That is happening already, right? It's beyond, it's actioning it, it's enforcing it, it's governing it.

And if you do that then it's not, hey, this didn't work. If I knew that I've done everything and still the lead was unresponsive or the data was not right. That's really good data for me to now go back to my vendor partners and start saying we use this. We're seeing this issue consistently, what should we do? And they're very consultative and they're very advisory to work with you as a partner. But when you just say this lead sucks, there's nothing to act on. There's no feedback loop. I mean, that's so generic, right? I just feel like that's an important thing that we sweep under the rug that we have to talk more about.

But anyway, that's what I'd say that's my party thought, Charlie. 

[00:33:55] Charlie Allieri: Yeah. Wait, by the way, I agree with that. All that great point. For, from my perspective, if my parting thought is, look, I think we had talked about this. The whole purpose of this was the marketing mix and how budgets are tighter. The one thing I one hundred percent believe in my bones is that an informed set of decisions is going to help you get the most out of that budget.

Full stop, right? So if you only have a limited budget, then let's focus that budget on where, you know, those channels most apply with the right content and get the most out of that budget and activation point or channel point for that audience. That's how you get the best out of your budget. And you know, I was at Brown Brothers Harriman, an informed buyer is our best customer.

So just be informed about what your customers are doing and it will help you dictate where you spend your allocations. 

[00:34:55] Alex Jonathan Brown: Guys, this has been fantastic. Like I said, I know we're dipping our toe in. Hopefully we can do this again sometime. Charlie, if people want to learn more about you and Intentsify, obviously the websites, intentsify.io, anywhere else they can check out or anything coming down the pipeline that we should, I mean, it sounds like maybe you just can't talk about, but other than that, anything you kind of want to plug.

[00:35:17] Charlie Allieri: Yeah no, nothing upcoming. You know, just more, you heard me talk about it probably ad nauseam is that we just launched the buying group intent. And we're the first and only that does it at this point. Definitely go and check that out. And hopefully soon we'll see some stuff written about it from some of the analysts.

[00:35:34] Alex Jonathan Brown: And if you're watching this and you're not familiar with Intentsify as somebody who wasn't before I started working at iron horse, the first time you like, see what it does and. It's basically magic in some ways. So definitely dig around a little more. It's as a marketer, it makes me so happy that it exists.

So Charlie, thank you for that. Uzair, ironhorse.io. Obviously you can learn more about what we're doing over here. Anything else you want to plug? 

[00:36:01] Uzair Dada: No, I think that, I think we're excited about sort of where we go. I think there's, you know, there's been a, not that many times, at least in my lifetime, where there's so much innovation going on in our industry.

Which sometimes can be frightening and in other ways could be just exhilarating. And I'm just exhilarated with sort of how things are evolving. I think there's a lot of cool stuff happening. And what is cool is all that is pushing all of us as an ecosystem to do things in more of an inventive way and sort of work.

So you know, I think we talked about sort of this being the year of experimentation. I think we're starting to get from experimentation to more productization. And I think that's pretty cool. 

[00:36:39] Alex Jonathan Brown: Awesome. Thank you both so much. If this has been your first coffee break, we do this once a month, come back and join us again. But until then, break's over. Let's get back to work. 

[00:36:49] Charlie Allieri: Thank you, Uzair. Thank you, Alex. You're a great host.